Curse

RavagerOfDreams · Jul 08, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

I think the main reason why people PvE over PvP is because that is what they chose to do first. Thus they don't want to leave there comfort zone. Sure the game is called "Guild Wars" however that doesn't mean thats the only thing to it. Many people who play MMO RPG's perfer to play out the storyline. Some do this simply because they like to play that way. Others simply to get a feel for the game before they try the parts that require a little more skill (admit it PvP is harder....at least at a higher level). So most people chose to play through the game in PvE mode before they tried out PvP. They then became used to the PvE play style and after beating the game maybe they tried PvP out maybe they never bothered. When they tried they dove into a world with a entirely different skill set. They then, probably, go frustrated with there failures (maybe they picked up the proper builds maybe not lets assume not) and they decided that it wasn't worth the effort. So the majority of people decided to stick to doing what they know how to do. At one point in time everyone was a "Noob" to HA and GvG however they eventually got better just like PvE'ers got better at PvE. The players who chose to play PvP got better faster at PvP (shocking I know). This + the fact that PvP is much more "intense" then PvE created a frustrating atmosphere for those who were new to PvP. Also PvP requires more devotion to the game then PvE which is much more casual.

fireflyry · Jul 08, 2008, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Imo it's pretty simple.

When GW first came out it was pretty 50/50 content, popularity and usage wise.

Since then Anet has used the majority of it's time to concentrate and produce a proportionately higher amount of both PvE content and rewards compared to PvP with not much changing since Factions release other than skills and new classes which applies to both.

Add grind based PvE rewards and titles that vastly outnumber any PvP related content and you have the current state of affairs.

I mean AB is still pretty popular yet there have really been no new incentives or variation in PvP play since then.Keeping PvP in a locked state imo has put many off.If Anet had more content and variations of play that cater to a broader audience over time things may have ended up different.

I remember watching the DVD I got with the NF collector's edition where Anet stated their blueprint for each new content release was to focus more on either one or the other aspect of the community, Prophecies being relatively split down the middle, Factions adding more PvP content and being more PvP focussed, NF concentrating more on PvE with the next instalment switching back to a PvP focus.

Obviously there was a HUGE change of direction after NF was released, god knows why, but it has worked all be it to the disdain of much of the community.

I still enjoy GW PvP but it's awfully stale and the amount of content, timesink and grind added to PvE completes the picture for me.

If a game is 70-80% PvE, 20-30% PvP in terms of related content and things to do it seems the end result would be pretty obvious.

Bluefeather · Jul 08, 2008, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

So where did it go wrong for the larger part of the GW crowd that remained playing PvE and never touched PvP ?

GW PvP demands much of your time. When you start with a battle, you can't do anything anymore (you can't even go to cr because you will be reported). And these days, you can no longer PvP the way you want to play it. Your team will give you your build and they expect you to play it well even if you don't understand what's in your bar. They will just tell you to press 4123 4123 56 4123 4123 (well, that's and exxageration).

I think if Anet put a 1v1 PvP as a start-up, more people will appreciate PvP and will eventually join other pvp areas.

For me, I'm happy with PvE and even after playing for 34 months, I still have lots of things to do.

DarkNecrid · Jul 08, 2008, 03:42 AM // 03:42

of course people tell you what to run because you are building a team. The very same happens in PvE if you play with humans too.

Spazzer · Jul 08, 2008, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Incoherent rambling, and focused more on gvg than tombs, since gimmicks in tombs started really early with spirit spamming.

People talk about how they want all these options and more and more stuff for pvp, and then they talk about the "Glory Days" of pvp right before Factions release when every monk was a boonprot, rangers ran cripshots with Distortion, and warriors had Gale. This was universal--teams did not deviate from these proven builds, and when they did, they were taking large risks. So the matches were actually players fighting against nearly identical balanced teams with small and easilly understood variations. You felt skilled for winning.

Then they curse the days that Assassins were added to force splits and blurr the front/mid/back lines. Or discord hero teams rolling balanced and gimmicks alike with barely any human interaction necessary. Or hexes on jade island where nobody could split away and would get overwhelmed. Ritspike. Paraway.

I could just be looking at it this way after playing some games like Team Fortress 2 and Dragon Arena, which pit you against other players who have predictable tools identical to yours--but it seems like having an effective gimmick build in guild wars is a very strong crutch.

Now on to the newbie who enters the game at this point!

Players are expected to play exactly the build given to them. It takes time (or money) for a new player to unlock these skills, as well as the runes for their armor. They also must invest additional time as everyone else sorts out their gear. It could take an hour just to set up for one match, and nobody is really confident except for the handful of egomaniacs who claim they know what they're doing. They've got it all worked out, and it's now up to the newbie to just use the effing build. It's on YOUR shoulders, nublet.

The new player finally gets in a match, only to have his team rolled by a dominating smurf.

God dammit, nublet.

The player sees he got no reward for the time spent. Player realizes he's never going to get good, and goes to pve to get some reward for time spent.

CoopaTroopa · Jul 08, 2008, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Speaking as a player who seems to follow the outline of what the OP was talking about (2500 hrs played, 24 maxed titles, 42 fame and 55 glad points), I think the hardest part for me was not getting into a PvP guild early. PvP isn't something you can easily learn on your own. The few times I tried to play old fashioned tombs, I wouldn't get a group because I didn't know what I was doing and no one wanted to teach me.

Most people learn to get good at PvP along with people they regularly play with, so that they don't have to worry about others yelling at them or degrading them. If I would have been able to find a guild of people that were willing to teach and have fun doing it, I probably would have gotten into PvP a lot more.

As it is, when I get the itch to PvP I'll either hop in RA or spend a few minutes watching observer mode until I can head back to grinding out that Asura title. As bad as it sounds, I think PvP could use something like the original IWAY; that is, a build that wasn't hard to run by any means, but at the same time helped new players learn the maps, battlefield awareness, and other basic skills. That way, new players could get into the game and at least have a fighting chance.

Unfortunately, that would alienate a lot of the older players, and would also create a stale HA environment. At this point, it seems like the best shot for most PvE players that were intrigued by PvP but never made the leap would be to wait until GW2 and get in on the ground floor, where the playing field would be leveled again.

One thing I would like to see is an arena that would be a combination of hero battles and random arena. You would just grab 3 heroes and jump in, but instead of capture points and lots of micromanaging, you would just to a simple 4v4 deathmatch that would have a maximum time of around 3 or 4 minutes. It wouldn't have to be anything serious, but I think that would help PvE players, who are already used to basic hero usage, learn the basic PvP skills.

DreamWind · Jul 08, 2008, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

a lot of it had to do with people not knowing the game was originally meant to be a PvP game.

even the devs confirmed this basically (that GW was meant to have PvP be the endgame): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmnEWvo1Ugw (#2).

Crap you posted it before me. Oh well.

Everybody informed knows that the only endgame was supposed to be PvP. It obviously isn't anymore, as people have HoM grinding and a bunch of other things to keep them busy. Why did this happen? You can point to a lot of reasons, but I think Anet is the only real reason. Their management of this game has been on epically bad proportions.

A good point was brought up earlier that people thought of Guild Wars as a free MMO. The thing is, it was never supposed to be an MMO! It was a CORPG! Anet has even come out and stated that Guild Wars was more along the lines of a regular video game where you beat it once then either play the endgame or wait to buy the next standalone content! Unfortunately over the course of time, Anet managed to change their game into something its not, and then the problems with the game really began to show.

The idea that the players wanted more PvE so Anet had to give it to them is crap. Millions of players bought the game with the competitive aspects and skill>time as the main focus of the game. The system Anet had set up worked perfect, as the masses would surely buy the new PvE content if they enjoyed the current PvE content (just as they do with part 2 of normal video games) and would not have to play the endgame if they didn't want to play it. I think Anet would have been better served sticking to their competitive philosophy and keeping the original PvP game intact while continually selling new PvE content to the masses.

Instead Anet caved in so badly that they not only completely changed their outlook and philosophy of the game, but also changed the endgame to a point where it is completely disfigured from its original form. PvP is no longer the endgame. PvE is now the beginning, middle, and end of Guild Wars, with PvP being a little minigame. I feel confident saying that PvP will probably be less than 5% importance of Guild Wars 2. This isn't a shift in focus...its a complete 180.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 08, 2008, 05:54 AM // 05:54

I'm gonna make some points on the OP, and ignore any responses for now as they are usually pointless (will correct myself later if I am incorrect)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

First of all, let me state that at least by the looks of it, PvP was ment to be endgame content for Guild Wars. (many will disagree, but just bare with me on this) :

I would agree with you, seeing how before Factions, PvE and PvP was nicely mixed together, and the only end-game was UW/FoW and HoH. So it was one of two options for End-game content how I see it.

Quote:

The game is called Guild Wars. Don't know about you, but that title seriously hints towards PvP (Guild versus Guild to be exact).

I think the game was named Guild Wars because of two events that happened in the past, along with the existence of Guilds. Those two events being the First Guild War and Second Guild War (the second one ended eight years before the game, due to invasion of the Charr). Although it would also be affected by the concept of GvG, however, that is not a "war," so it is unlikely that the name was based entirely on that.

Quote:

Then there's the posibility to make PvP characters. No need to drag every single profession through the entire game. Just make an out-of-the-box PvP toon and be ready in no-time. Sure, balthazar's faction wasn't included at the start, which made the whole concept a bit less great than it sounded. But that was quickly fixed (and GW2 will even be UAX from the start).

I think the PvP characters were added for those who just want to fight other people and not bother with any other gameplay, personally.

Quote:

Every large town had a PvP arena where you could practice, whislt developing your character. And once ascended, you could enter the tomb of the primeval kings to fight for the favour of the gods. All that PvP was very nicely embedded in the Lore and the PvE world. It seemed kind of obvious (at least to me) to engage in PvP sooner or later.

Every large town had an Arena in order to give a new standard for people who advance in the story. It wouldn't be fair to have level 20s fighting level 4s and 5s in Ascalon Arena. And not to mention that there are two arenas after Tombs, so Tombs wasn't mean to be the end before the end. And yes, it was very nicely embedded into the lore and the PvE part of the game. In the beginning, I believe ANet attempted to make them one in the same, but it started to get difficult with the release of Factions (where they introduced the Battle Isle, bad idea imo) and the new forms of PvP, which AB is not accessible through non-PvP methods (another bad move imo). Essentially, PvE and PvP started splitting the second Factions came out, probably when Factions was being made.

Quote:

So where did it go wrong for the larger part of the GW crowd that remained playing PvE and never touched PvP ?

I have a lot of thoughts about that, ranging from "average MMO-er is not competitve minded and would rather spend 1000+ hours killing critters than spending 1000+ hours learning how to outsmart another player" to "People that play MMO's want to 'live' in a world where they are the best, the bravest, the hero. In PvP, there will always be someone handing your ass to you, therefor, the average MMO-er does not enjoy PvP".

Along with those two things you mentioned, which are both true, there is also how the people in PvP act. The same problem goes for PvE, however there are Henchmen to replace those people. I hardly PvP because I got sick of all the "haha noob" and "u fukin suk!" etc etc that gets thrown at the losers, and then someone from the losing team always go "wtf you noobs! go l34rn to pl4y!" and whatnot.

That is probably the biggest reason why those who PvE mostly do not PvP as much. Change the behavior, and PvP will get a boost, if the behavior change is known. BUT, that won't happen.

FF_Timmeh · Jul 08, 2008, 06:40 AM // 06:40

hi ppl.

someone here said AoC... AoC really is a total PVP game and i loved it for about 3 years.

in Guild wars i hate the pvp part and only play pve.

why i think.

the reason is, in gw there is no rating system. when i go ra, there can play the biggest noob together with gladi r6 or something.

when i play AoC im 16xx rating and fighting vs 16xx... and the 2k ppl fighting each other too. [gamezone... some ppl maybe know this]

thats just the way it should be. anet should have done some title-referred rating system for example....

where r0 gladis fighting each other... and higher ranked player fighting each other.

Shadowspawn X · Jul 08, 2008, 06:47 AM // 06:47

I am a super casual pvp'r player. Whenever I finish a campaign I will HA while I wait for new pve content. I think titles have made it where people who are hooked on pve content can never finish it and move on to pvp. I personally will pvp again after I run my 10,000 chests which really means cya in 2009.

I Dont Do Coke · Jul 08, 2008, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmoon

Pvp is a nasty place imo
RA has sync'er
GvG has smurf guilds
HA has rank discrimination
HB has people who tank their rating and rollers

Haven't thought of anything bad about TA yet, will have to think about it for a sec. But all these things discourages people to start doing pvp.

Indeed. I've played Guild Wars for over a year but have never touched any form of PvP besides RA, CM and AB because of all the listed reasons. Yes yes I know, I'm a sore loser and I'll get over it.

upier · Jul 08, 2008, 08:30 AM // 08:30

The only PvP I like is Aspy.
Everything else just isn't fun.
I am guessing the biggest problems are the lack of auto-rez, insanely small arenas and parties (in Aspy you have a bunch of NPCs which are able to make up for shitty players) and the lack of chaos (in builds and in playstyle).

I did some AB also - and it wasn't THAT bad - but the whole 4 man party kills it for me.

EPO Bot · Jul 08, 2008, 08:40 AM // 08:40

I can't even say anything about HA because in the two and a half year i play almost dayly, i only found a party there once.

Most of the pvp content is repetitive,elitist and completely build based. The one thing that can make it fun is random HA with randomly assigned skills. With a one week ban for anyone leaving before defeat. Then it would be skill based.

Tyla · Jul 08, 2008, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

repetitive

And PvE isn't?

Quote:

elitist

Find me an online game with no elitism and then we can talk.
You can't escape it, PvE or PvP.

Quote:

completely build based

Wait, so putting your skill bar together has nothing to do with the game?

Look, the majority of the things complained about in PvP are really in PvE too. It's just the difference between the two; one has H/H, the other does not. One also is against AI, and the other against players.

EPO Bot · Jul 08, 2008, 08:54 AM // 08:54

At least it is possible to find a party in pve. You only need to have one guildie and you can do anything anywhere. And for me, pve is not repetitive at all since i don't farm and never do the same area twice in a row. If people find pve boring because they feel compelled to farm in the same spot for weeks, that's their own problem.

Tyla · Jul 08, 2008, 09:02 AM // 09:02

It is possible to find a party in PvP though. The only people who struggle to do so are people who don't bother trying. Get a friends list, and attempt to persuade them to play with you.

As for PvE not being repetetive...they're always the same. No difference in how the AI plays, they don't coordinate accurately, and they have the same skill bars all the time, except for when they add an elite for HM.

PvP is against different people. Things can change fast, choices need to be made fast, and people are smarter and playstyles are alot different. Not to mention players actually change builds. It's the exact opposite.

EPO Bot · Jul 08, 2008, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Even IF i find a pvp party, i always get kicked because someone doesn't like the build i chose to play. So what if i prefer glimmer over HB? It heals you fast and it heals you good. Too bad you can't convince anyone of that. I just don' t have the patience for all that crap. RA or Aspenwood is all i can stand from time to time. And AB because most often people there just grab any allie they can get and dive into it.

That's another reason why i would prefer Diablo3 over GW2: No one cares what kind of build you use. Any help is welcomed no matter what skills you have. Also, Diablo2 didn't have party leaders with the ability to kick you out for not being cookie cutter. Heaven.

At least GW pve has heroes so you only need to find one co op player to do anything you want. One for the front line and one for support and you are golden.

Tyla · Jul 08, 2008, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

Even IF i find a pvp party, i always get kicked because someone doesn't like the build i chose to play. So what if i prefer glimmer over HB? It heals you fast and it heals you good.

If you can't be a team player and use what's most effective in that part, you're just as easily kicking yourself.

Quote:

Also, Diablo2 didn't have party leaders with the ability to kick you out for not being cookie cutter. Heaven.

Cookie cutter for using what's most effective and what people asked for?

Cookie cutter because you wanted to remove something that powers your heals alot for a sub-par heal?

Please.

Quote:

At least GW pve has heroes so you only need to find one co op player to do anything you want. One for the front line and one for support and you are golden.

And what if you were open to play with other people? A full team of 8 players, going at full aiming for maximum efficiency is awesome, and in fact, getting a full party of people will make the run fun for most people. Playing with people is the best experience you can get on this game.

Knight O Cydonia · Jul 08, 2008, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Noone likes dying. It sucks. Your screen goes all grey, you see all your buddies still fighting on without you. Unfortunately in PvP you will die a lot. Even the best people in the game die. The problem lies in that once you find a team build / tactic that works in a static PvE setting, suddenly you find you die quite a lot less. Theres no need to adept (especially now that PvE and PvP skills are split).

The learning curve is so much steeper in PvP than PvE. The game gently takes you through Pre-searing, and helps you through the PvE aspect of Prophecies. If the game holds your hand through most of PvE but leaves you by the side of the road to fend for yourself when it comes to PvP, you can forgive people for thinking 'you know what, i'm not going to PvP because it's too hard and i die a lot'. It's also such a painstaiking task to gather 8 people up for organised PvP. There is a lot of waiting around compared to PvE, which people new to organised PvP aren't used to / haven't got the patience for.

EPO Bot · Jul 08, 2008, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Unless they don't let you play whatever the hell you want.

They want me to be a healer.Then fine i heal you right up. Too bad people always need to see wich build i use. So what it's not the most effective in this current patch? It's something different from the usual at least. I would have gotten sick of this game ages ago without any variation from time to time.